Why Eric Wedge should be fired (very long)

[WaitTillNextYear]

Edit Part 2 (and 3... and 4 ): Decided to clean things up a little bit, deleting some of the stuff from last season now that it's over. Also edited Larry's info (the 1-run games are a great stat) into this original post.

The reason WHY this is gonna be so long is because he sucks in so many aspects. So here it is... why Eric Wedge should be fired.

1. This one is just an observation… It is truly amazing and kind of ironic how poorly Eric Wedge handles a pitching staff considering he was a catcher in his playing days.

2. It is just as amazing and equally ironic how incapable this team is at winning under pressure or when expectations are raised (internally or externally), considering Wedge's whole mantra is to stay "even keel" and take things "1 game at a time".

2004: Playing for 1st place in mid-August. Result? 9 game losing streak. Finish 12 games out.

2005: End the year with 3 against 90+ loss Tampa Bay and 3 with a ChiSox team that clinched the division and rested ½ of its regulars the last 2 games. Only need to go 3-3 to get into the playoffs. Result? 1-5 (1-6 including a series-ending loss to Kansas City, never added that part before).

2006: Expectations raised after 93 win 2005. Indians picked not just as a division contender, but are a popular World Series pick as well (locally and nationally). Result? 78-84. Have to win 8 of 9 down the stretch just to reach that.

2007: Expectations lowered after dismal 2006. Indians a popular pick to finish 3rd in the division. No expectations? 96 wins. Still manage to melt down though. Blow a 3-1 lead in the ALCS, including losses by 2 of the top 5 pitchers in the American League. Wedge claimed home field advantage was unimportant going into the series.

2008: Expectations raised again after 2007. Indians again a popular pick to compete not just for the division, but for the World Series. Result? 81-81 finish. 0-8 on the Wedge/Shapiro proclaimed “make or break” road trip. (Gonna keep this part because it's still relevant)Some people (like Shapiro) like to blame injuries for the 2008 struggles. Well… the team was 22-25 when Fausto got hurt, 24-29 when Jake went down a few days later, and…

3. On July 13, 2003, the Cleveland Indians were 41 - 53 and 11 games back.

On July 13, 2008 the Indians were 41 - 53 and 13.5 games back.

Injuries or not, can you honestly tell me that the 2003 team featuring guys like Matt Lawton, Ricky “At least I’m not Franklin” Gutierrez, pre-success Brandon Phillips and pitchers like Jack Cressend and Carl Sadler was as talented as the 2008 team? I didn’t think so.

Again, the wins came WITHOUT C.C, Casey, Byrd, Hafner, etc. Injuries are NO EXCUSE, because they started winning once the best players were GONE.

4. Attitude reflects leadership. Game after game Wedge sits in the dugout twitching, emotionless, and basically appearing uninterested in what is going on. This has clearly worn off on the players, as I honestly can’t remember the last time it looked like this team was having fun, even when they were winning. The Wedge supporters call this his “even keel” approach. Well they’ve even keeled themselves right into last place. Now they've started to loosen up a little since management threw in the towel, but it's gonna be too little, too late (unless they pull an 07 Rockies, but I'm not holding my breath on that one).

^ Nailed that one. And they've already managed to do it again this season

5. Wedge never has this team ready to play coming out of spring training. They consistently dig themselves into early holes due to piss poor play in April. It isn’t a surprise or coincidence that the only season they had a decent April is also the only year they’ve made the playoffs under Wedge.

2003 April: 7-20 (11.5 back)

2004: 9-13 (6 back)

2005: 9-14 (7.5 back)

2006: 13-12 (4.5 back)

2007: 14-8 (1st place… went to the playoffs. Incredible!)

2008: 13-15 (2 back)

2009: 8-14 (3.5 back)

6. Wedge is too “buddy buddy” with his players. Every year he refuses to get rid of/bench one of his “boys”, regardless of how poorly they play. In 2006 it was Aaron Boone, in 2007 it was Mike Rouse, in 2008 it’s David Delucci. Stop trying to be everybody’s pal and start acting like a manager. You know, what you get PAID to do?

7. Since 1948 (the last world series win), the Indians have had 20 managers, NOT including interim guys. Exactly 1 of them has been kept around more than 6 seasons. That was Mike Hargrove. He managed to last longer because, although he didn’t win one, he at least MADE IT to 2 World Series and won the division every year. Hell, he even got fired after winning the division.

On the other hand Eric Wedge has 0 World Series appearances, 1 playoff appearance in 6 years, and 3 seasons below .500 (with another right at .500 now)

8. This is only from 2005, and the reason for this (and why I did that last season) was to avoid the Wedge apologists using the "it was a rebuilding year" excuse. With 2005 and up, they have no excuses to use for these numbers.

1-run games

2005 (93-69) 22-36 (that's not a typo)
2006 (78-84) 18-26
2007 (96-66) 29-24
2008 (81-81) 14-17
2009 (8-14) 3-3

86-106 overall

extra innings

2005 (93-69) 8-10
2006 (78-84) 5-3
2007 (96-66) 11-8
2008 (81-81) 5-9
2009 (8-14) 0-1

29-31 overall

And to add on to the 1-run games record...

What is pythagorean winning percentage?

Pythagorean winning percentage is an estimate of a team's winning percentage given their runs scored and runs allowed.

Here are the Indians Pythagorean winning percentages in the Wedge era...

2003 record: 68-94, Pythagorean record: 73-89 (-5)
2004: 80-82, Pythagorean 81-81 (-1)
2005: 93-69, Pythagorean 96-66 (-3)
2006: 78-84, Pythagorean 89-73 (-11)
2007: 96-66, Pythagorean: 91-71 (+5) Again, NO COINCIDENCE that this was the only year under Wedge they made the playoffs. EVERYTHING that could have possibly gone right did. It was the ultimate "blind squirril finding the nut" scenario, and EVERY stat backs that claim up.
2008: 81-81, Pythagorean: 85-77 (-4)
2009: 8-13, Pythagorean: 10-11

Add all of the above, plus the fact that the Indians are consistently one of the worst fundamental teams in baseball (in terms of base running, situational hitting, etc.), and tell me WHY Eric Wedge should get (make that GOT)a 7th year?

Edit: Mission accomplished.

[tonyc]

I agree with just about everything you had to say, dude!! Another point to consider...How come WEDGE DOES NOT HAVE ONE SUICIDE SQUEEZE IN ALL THE TIME HE'S BEEN INDIANS' MANAGER? There's something wrong with that (as far as him applying "classic" baseball knowledge to the game is concerned)! ...I think HE THINKS he knows better than other baseball people and is trying to re-invent the game or something. If you've ever heard of the "Peter Principle", Wedge is
a great example of that principle in action...someone rising to his level of his incompetence. HE"S A GREAT TRIPLE-A MANAGER, but he doesn't "cut the mustard" as a major-league manager at the highest level (i.e.-one who WINS!). Every time HIS teams get into a position where they can "make a move" to get to an elite level, the team (and this is another way of saying what you said with all your great statistics) "CHOKES"! Sorry to say (yeah, I know he was manager of the year (as Kevin likes to point out) last year but up until the middle of last year, WEDGE WAS ON THE HOT SEAT, remember that?)! What caused the Indians to go on a good run last year was that they were "sparked" first by Asdrubal Cabrera and then later in the year by "K-Love". Everything basically "broke" Wedge's way because of the moves that Mark Shapiro made in those cases. It was an aberration! Wedge is a poor "in-game manager" (meaning he makes bad choices during games). He can't get along with guys that don't "drink his Cool-Aid" and because of that we don't have Kenny Lofton, Brandon
Phillips and Milton Bradley on the team anymore - which, if we did, we woouldn't have this problem with our hitting and still be in the hunt for the playoffs this year.) The other part of the problem with the Indians is their scouting (which is appoximately the "other half" of the problem with the Indians (with Wedge being the "half" on the field)) which has "blown" a lot of first-round draft choices for the Indians in the past 6-7 years. The team needs to fire the "stiffs" (whoever they were!) who suggested drafting the "stiffs" we got in most of those drafts!

[baronchico]

i agree with most of your post and your ultimate conclusion. Wedge may have been good enough to bridge the 02 white flag to getting the team back to contender, but it is beginning to look like 07 was a fluke under his leadership.

Last season the offense sucked just as bad as most of this season from mid june to mid august, yet he kept rolling Casey Blake out there in the 2 slot in the batting order. We are talking 2007 Blake who hit under .200 with RISP. Finally, Wedge succumbed to reality and dropped Blake in the lineup bumped Asdrubal up and both hit well and the team took off.

This year, despite Hafner not taking his "vitamins" and hitting .214, he kept rolling him out there in the 3rd slot.

Wedge cost us the World Series last year. If he pulled CC after 6 innings in Game 5. We might have pulled that out. We trailed 2-1 after 6. CC pitched ok, yet had thrown about 100 pitches. Instead he throws him out to the 7th and basically the game was over.

[WaitTillNextYear]

I think Wedge was a very solid rebuilding manager. He did a good job allowing the young guys to develop and learn to win together at their own pace without shattering their confidence. I also give him props for getting the team ready to compete in 2004, a full year earlier than expected. That said, he's proven he just isn't a legit big league manager.

I was neutral towards Wedge after 2003 because they were rebuilding. I was still neutral after 2004 because, even though they completely fell apart, they did show big time improvement from the previous year.

First time I wanted Wedge gone was after 2005. Back to back collapses once the heat was on convinced me the Indians would never win with him as manager, but I understood WHY they didn't fire him after 2005. I was shocked that he wasn't let go after 2006, and I'm now convinced that Wedge won't go until Shapiro does.

[tonyc]

Your post, baronchico, brings to mind another "screwup" by Wedge. How about in game 7 where Jake Westbrook is just "rolling along" and getting everyone out (in contrast to the rest of the staff - starters and relievers included [!] - in the previous 2 1/2 games), so Wedge decides to go "by the book" (i.e.- HIS "book") and bring in the relief corp (I forget who was the first guy...Raffy Perez?) which then proceeds to "blow" the game and the series. Good job there, Wedgie!
Another thing...this goes back to what Bill Livingston said in his column a couple days ago. If Joel Skinner "holds" up the runner (Kenny Lofton, in this case) that would have been the run that tied game 7 AS MEMBER OF THE YANKEES, the dude is gonzo!! Yet the Indians (in all their "wisdom") decide to "fire" Kenny Lofton instead! I said to a lot of people at the time that this thing (the Indians not firing Joel Skinner for his incompetence in this critical situation) "sends a wrong message" to those in the organization. The message it sends is that "It's OK to be a screwup" or "It's OK to make a big mistake in a big situation; you'll still have your job!". No SELF-RESPECTING (OR WINNING!) organization sends that message to it's underlings!!!

[Sara Tonyn]

I agree with all of the above and could add more to support the firing of Wedge but, unfortunately, Wedge supporters will never see the light. Equally unfortunate is that Shapiro supporters suffer the same blindness.

So since Shapiro and Wedge are joined at the hip, neither one will be leaving anytime soon unless Dolan orders it.

And that ain't gonna happen unless a baseball miracle occurs.

P.S. Fire Skinner too. The Lofton screw-up is the most glaring example of Skinner's inability to know when to send runners home, but the truth is Skinner messes up all the time! Any 3B coach that repeatedly gets runners thrown out by 20 feet is clueless. He's costing the team too many precious runs. Hire Lofton to coach 3B.

[WaitTillNextYear]

1 more thing from me... for the people who say "firing the manager isn't going to change anything":

3 teams have fired their managers this year: Toronto, Seattle, and the Mets. Here are their records before and after making the change...

Seattle: 25-47 prior to firing manager John McLaren, 12-11 since. HUGE difference there.

Toronto: 35-39 prior to firing manager John Gibbons, 12-9 since. Not as much of a difference, but still an improvement.

New York Mets: 34-35 prior to firing manager Willie Randolph, 16-9 since. Another huge difference.

So yeah, sometimes getting rid of a dead weight manager IS all that it takes.

[joel121270]

I am in agreement with most of this, in particular the handling of the pitching staff. I have found myself watching games and think WTF is he doing. Personally, Borowski was a bum and always has been, it really came to light this season. I say injuries partially played a roll in latter part of this seasons collapse, when the Carmona and Westbrook went done that was all she wrote. We were staying above water because the pitching was doing it, but it just went downhill fast.

[joel121270]

One more thing, I think we don't have a real Vet leader like a Nixon or Lofton....Remember all those years in the 90's we always had a proven vet on the team and it seemed to help. I know Victor was trying but he is relatively young too even though he is the vet on the team. Delucci is a bum.

[tonyc]

People complain about Shapiro and, yeah, he's made some bad moves over the years but LAST YEAR the Indians were in POSITION to WIN IT ALL! That's all you can expect from a GM. IT WAS WEDGE who rested a lot of regulars in that last week when we (the Indians) had a chance to get home-field advantage THROUGHOUT THE PLAYOFFS! It was Wedge who (as was mentioned before in this thread) took out C.C. (he still had the periods back then!) too late in Game 5 of the series against the Bosox and took out Jake "the Snake" too early in game 7, both with disastrous consequences. It was WEDGE's GUY, Skinner, who "held up" Kenny Lofton when the Indians could have tied the score and "changed the complexion (and/ or momentum)" of that last game last year. I also once calculated that Wedge probably costed us 4-5 games in the standings last year because of "bonehead" moves LIKE HAVING JOBO PITCH TO A RED-HOT ALEX RODRIGUEZ with first-base open (right before the All-Star break last year, if memory serves)! The weird thing about that screwup was that he kept trying to justify the move to whomever would listen after the game! Derek Jeter, in a sound "bite" heard the next day, said that "I wouldn't have pitched to him (i.e.- A-Rod) [in that situation]!" Like I said before (but to put it in another way), he goes "against the grain" of what's COMMON KNOWLEDGE in baseball "circles". He keeps saying that the players have to "play the game the right way"; how about if the MANAGER WOULD TAKE HIS OWN ADVICE and follow accepted, "tried-and-true" baseball stategic moves during games!! When he "goes against the grain" of what almost any (what would generally be considered a) good manager would do, that's when my blood starts to boil (and I've had to cut out watching games more than a few times, just so my blood pressure wouldn't get out of hand (believe it or not!)!). Hear that Mark Shapiro (and Paul Dolan)!! Wedge is causing people to stop watching your team! Mike Hargrove (as he said in yesterday's PD (great article, by the way!)) is looking to manage in the "bigs" again as is Buck Showalter (based on an interview with a local all-sports station recently (probably about a week ago) where he seemed (to me) to be "auditioning" for the job of Indians' manager!). DO THE RIGHT THING, Mark Shapiro...

[tonyc]

POSTSCRIPT: I forgot to mention....when Jobo pitched to A-Rod in that situation (described above) right before the All-Star break, A-Rod hit a "bomb" off Jobo to win the game and (correct me if I'm wrong here) knock the Indians out of first-place in the AL Central Divison. Again, what made my blood boil more than anything was that he tried to justify the move! A person can't grow as a manager if he can't accept the reality of when he makes a bad move!! It's time for you to go, Wedgie! (You're a "nice guy" but your results "speak for themselves".)

[tonyc]

Interesting what Milton Bradley said about Wedge and the Indians over the All-Star break...he said something to the effect that "it seems like they try to make everyone into clones of each other over there". Wedge, in the way he deals with his players, reminds me of teachers who are only concerned with making sure their students are "getting the work done" or with "getting through the material"...those kind of teachers are "lost" when dealing with "gifted" students! Isn't Wedge the same way? I think so...the "gifted" students (i.e.- ballplayers with extraordinary talent) are held back (generally speaking...Grady is an exception) from reaching their full potential because the teacher (Wedge) teaches to the "lowest common denominator" of the students (i.e. players).

Also, in the Lake County News-Herald yesterday, Jim Ingraham was quoting Charlie Manuel when he described the outfielders on the Indians (other than Sizemore) as just "hard-tryers". I think that's a major problem with the whole team (and it's PRECIPITATED BY WEDGE with his constant "one-size-fits-all" answer to Indians' troubles: "We need to try harder next time!")! Look...if just trying harder was the answer IN EVERY CASE (as Wedge seems to think), then the Indians should be in first place every freakin' year because there's no question that they "try hard"! The problem with that is that the goal isn't to WIN THE GAME as much as it is to see a player "try hard" on the field! Is it any wonder that Wedge's teams never "get over the hump"! The PLAYERS ARE DOING WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO DO and, if Wedge perceives that they're "trying hard", then they still have their jobs! Must be nice to be an "babied" Indian player, like that! Most organizations WANT TO SEE RESULTS...we (or, perhaps I should just say, the INDIANS' "BRAIN TRUST"!) are happy if the players (for the most part) just "try hard" (which CAN BE "faked" by players trying to keep their jobs (to a large degree), by the way!)!

What do you guys (and gals) who are reading this think about what I just said in this post? (I admit I'm getting a little abstract here (dealing with the "psychology of winning"), but I still think I'm "on the money" with my remarks.) I'm curious as to whether you agree or disagree with what I just said...

[Sara Tonyn]

Here's another unbelievable WedgeBall move. 2006: Stubbornly insisting that Carmona should close, resulting in 3 horrific blown saves that could've ruined Carmona's confidence forever. Thank the Baseball Gods that Carmona was able to put those disasters behind him without any negative carryover. I suspect he was able to do it because he realized he wasn't a failure, Wedge was. I mean is.

[tonyc]

Boy this thread can (and maybe SHOULD) continue all year long, since Wedge tends to have a managerial "screwup" (by my calculations) about once every other game!

[tonyc]

Here's some Wedge-related comments I culled underneath an article by Terry Pluto on the "state of the Indians" at the All-Star break at this link (and giving everyone credit for their comments):
http://blog.cleveland.com/sports/2008/0 ... pen_m.html

Posted by krivka on 07/16/08 at 10:30PM
Why Wedge is still here is a mystery. He smells as a manager and his ability to misuse and/or misjudge talent is not just this years problem.
Sure the front office has made some mistakes, but how much of that problem partly because they trusted Wedge's opinions in the first place?

Posted by wedgehapns on 07/16/08 at 11:28PM
Wedge deserves more blame. He's the one who insists on using DeLucci and who insisted on using Borowski when Borowski was clearly done.

Posted by emmagoblue on 07/17/08 at 2:13AM
i would not be surprised if the level of play improves, now that there's no pressure, but i wouldn't care to wager on it.

Posted by rtpft on 07/17/08 at 7:49AM
I don't get the feeling this team is managed aggressively. Wedge doesn't seem to have much of a personality, and it seems that those are the coaches that do well-Pinella, Weaver, Lasorda, even Hargrove.

Posted by tribefanatic on 07/17/08 at 8:41AM
BTW- Wedge stinks!!!! He has had these guys tighter than a drum for too long. He is a walking cliche.
Did anyone see when Corey Hart from the Brewers was named to the All Star game and the other players burst into the press conference and absolutely drenched him and his daughter with beverages as if they had all been selected or if they had just won the Wold Series..that is fun and how a team in contention should behave. Similar to the pies last year.

Posted by desertdude on 07/17/08 at 10:27AM
...the biggest problem is the total lack of managing, fire wedge, the guy who cost us a world series last year.

Posted by weggiehater on 07/17/08 at 10:38AM
Well Well Well if it isn't another homer sportswriter pertecting Wedge like a pair of depends .
What is up with all these writers and Announcers in this town are they all afraid they may get locked out of the club house if they just tell it like it is .
Wedge and his stupid Dialogue post and before game interview ( I liked the way the ball came out of his hand this saying is used alot when Byrd who has NEVER put 2 good season's together in a row , And the ball came off his bat real nicely tonight saying normally use on Dellucci .
And have we all forgot that it was WEDGE who on TV this fall said he would be happy coming back with the exact team he had he felt we had what we need and how he felt that Haf as he calls him would rebound a guy that has had physical issues for the last 3 years. We signed him to that [censored] contract knowing he was hurt , how stupid was that .
How stupid was it to give a Outfield like Michaelsand Dellucci multi year contracts these guys have never been more than back-ups and platoon guy their whole career. And if you recall Wedge is the one who lobbied for these guys in the first place.
If you recall it was Wedge who clashed with Bradley / Phillips when they were here WOW if we had these 2 guys in the line-up now how bad would Haftner and Martinez being out been then and Eddie Murray and Buddy Bell 2 coaches Wedge couldn't get along with and Buck Showalter a special asst in the front office he has had nothing good to say about Wedge , When he left the Indians right before the playoff recall him saying that Wedge has to learn you can't always be their friend , sometimes you have to be the manager , and sometimes that means guys are going to be mad at you .
This season I feel a real major league manager that managed truely with what you have , meaning when your 2 top hitter are out of the line - up it's time for Small Ball NOW not a month from now . This year would have been at least 10 more games in the win area alone ...
...A far as the PIPE DREAMS that we could still win the Wild Card do the math the Indians would have to win 80% of the rest of their games just to finish with a respectable record . And that won't happen because .
1. Your manager doesn't play SMALL BALL
2. Your manager won't stop playin Dellucci every day.
3. Your manager won't stop believin in Byrd
4. Your manager won't put Peralta at the DH position for the rest of the year and bring up Cabrara to play Shortstop for the rest of the season that move alone may be net them an additional 5 to 6 win they won't have gotten .
5. The Indians won't call back up Aubrey right now to platton with Garko give him a chance and when Garko gets some rest he seems to stop pulling the ball so much and gets back to what he does best which is spray the ball to all fields .

Posted by marx33 on 07/17/08 at 1:49PM
I held out as long as I could but I can't anymore. Wedge needs to go. I'm not going to sit here and say the front office doesn't deserve quite a bit of the blame for refusing to improve obvious areas of the team that were lacking entering the season...and ones that have been adequately represented in these postings. What I want to focus on is Wedge's inability to manage expectations, overcome adversity, and why he treats this team like they're a AAA ballclub. Wedge is...simply put...not a big time MLB manager. He's good with young players as displayed by his performance in the minors. But the problem is he's been promoted into incompetency.
Dolan needs to hire John Farrell, pitching coach of the Red Sox as our next manager. The Red Sox have sustained just as many injuries and disappointment this season as the Indians, yet they're in first place in a much tougher AL East. The Red Sox don't make excuses for not having their star players the majority of the first half of the season. They just plug the holes left by Ortiz and Schilling with young guys...AND THEY PRODUCE. Why? B/c they're coaches know how to handle managing expectations. With the exception of Ramirez, the coaches don't coddle the young guys. They expect them to go out and perform...and they are!
Make no mistake about it, the Indians have youth but we are not a young team. There are several veterans on this team and they need to step it up and start expecting the young guys to play. It can't be pat em on the behind and get em next time non sense all the time. There has to be accountability for the lack of performance. John Farrell knows how to manage a pitching staff with an ace who is not pitching like one (Beckett), a star in the making who has mechanics issues and too many walks (Matzusaka), and a host of promising young starters (Lester, Buckhotz, Masterson)...and they're pitching in Boston! This is a place where if you don't perform the whole city will turn on you.
The moral of the story is Wedge is not the answer and there is a compelling case why we should bring back an ex-Indian to manage this team in John Farrell.

Posted by medinaphil on 07/17/08 at 1:54PM
The problem with this team was on display Tuesday night. There were more former Indians (Manny Ramirez, Milton Bradley, Ryan Ludwick) than current Indians playing in the All-star game. I forgive the Indians for not paying Manny Ramirez HUGE money. What I will never forgive is making boneheaded mistakes with our roster when we are running with a shoestring payroll. How would Bradley, Brandon Phillips and Ludwick look right now in this lineup?. Unlike the Red Sox and Yankees, we will never have the payroll to outspend our mistakes and injuries. So you better have a GM and a Manager who know what the heck they are doing. I'm glad Eric Wedge loves the character of his team, because they can't hit their weight nor play sound fundamental baseball. WEDGE MUST GO or Shapiro must stop listening to him.

[tonyc]

Buck Showalter a special asst in the front office he has had nothing good to say about Wedge , When he left the Indians right before the playoff recall him saying that Wedge has to learn you can't always be their friend , sometimes you have to be the manager , and sometimes that means guys are going to be mad at you.

Buck Showalter...there's a guy who saw the (sometimes) dysfunctional relationship between Wedge and the players "up close and personal"! (YEAH!! Insight into human relationships! I LIKE that in a prospective manager!)

[tonyc]

Check out my new topic, "FIRE WEDGE NOW or LET HIM FULFILL THE REST OF HIS CONTRACT?" in Indians Talk...I give (what I consider to be) an interesting "third alternative" in answer to that question that should be acceptable both to "fire Wedgie now" people and "Give Wedgie more time; he needs to grow" people (if you can believe that!)...

[WaitTillNextYear]

Another fun fact... from Baseball-reference.com

What is pythagorean winning percentage?

Pythagorean winning percentage is an estimate of a team's winning percentage given their runs scored and runs allowed.

Here are the Indians Pythagorean winning percentages in the Wedge era...

2003 record: 68-94, Pythagorean record: 73-89
2004: 80-82, Pythagorean 81-81
2005: 93-69, Pythagorean 96-66
2006: 78-84, Pythagorean 89-73
2007: 96-66, Pythagorean: 91-71. Again, NO COINCIDENCE that this was the only year under Wedge they made the playoffs. EVERYTHING that could have possibly gone right did. It was the ultimate "blind squirril finding the nut" scenario, and EVERY stat backs that claim up.
2008: 41-54, Pythagorean: 48-47

Statistically the Indians should have won 22 more games to this point than they have in the Wedge era.

Just more proof that Wedge-run teams CAN NOT win close games.

Whoever said on a different topic that all arguments against Wedge can be countered is full of it.

The only arguments I've ever heard backing him are "93 wins in 2005 and 96 in 2007" and "He had them competing a year ahead of schedule".

After that, they are left totally grasping for straws (ex. blaming this year solely on injuries and refusing to pass ANY blame on to Wedge).

5-1 since expectations were removed by the way. Not a fluke at all.

[tonyc]

NOTE: More "points" to why Wedge should be fired can be found here -at the link below (more towards the last 1/2 of the thread):

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=514

[baronchico]

Here is Wedgies quote about Jhonny in today's PD:

"There is always going to be that ball that is just off the glove. But he's as good as anybody in the game, if not the best, at the routine play."

Outstanding, bravo! That is like saying that David Dellucci is as good as anybody in the game if not the best at sucking in every plate appearance.

More evidence as to why Wedgie needs to go!

[tonyc]

Incredible (at times) conversation going on between Wedge detractors and Wedge defenders @ this link:

http://blog.cleveland.com/sports/2008/0 ... short.html

[Sara Tonyn]

"There is always going to be that ball that is just off the glove. But he's as good as anybody in the game, if not the best, at the routine play."

I saw that quote in the PD and had to read it 3 times before I was convinced even Wedge could say something so ridiculous.

Was Wedge hit in the head by a shattered bat? If so, I hope it was one of Jhonny's...

[tonyc]

I thought Bob Frantz (on Kevin's show a couple nights ago) put it beautifully and "in a nutshell" when he said about the Indians, "Ultimately that's what makes this so frustrating...it's when we expect nothing that we get something and when the expectations rise, that's when they disappoint...". He goes on further to say, "You can even look at it as not over the course of a season but over the course of the last 4 years. We expect something; we collapse. We expect nothing; we go to... within one game of the Series last year." Well put, Bob!

[Wildy83]

Just wondering why it seems Wedge seems to know how to manage very well whenever Cliff Lee starts a game. Oh yeah, I forgot. If the team wins it is the players, if they loose it is the manager. Also, he seemed to manage pretty well when CC was pitching. Wonder how he would have done if Fausto would have stayed healthy? And as week as many feel we are this year thru out our lineup, Wedge had this same group with in 1 game of making it to the World Series. And that was with our 2 best pitchers unable to win 1 game in 4!! And our best pitcher this year was not even on the roster. Think he would have been a better manager this year if Westbrook would have stayed healthy? Scares me to think that you people wanting to fire the manager are the same people that vote for our president.

[tonyc]

Just wondering why it seems Wedge seems to know how to manage very well whenever Cliff Lee starts a game.... Also, he seemed to manage pretty well when CC was pitching. Wonder how he would have done if Fausto would have stayed healthy? ... Think he would have been a better manager this year if Westbrook would have stayed healthy?

No, he wouldn't have been a "better manager" (but many would falsely perceive him that way!) if we had all those guys healthy and pitching up to their capabilities. Any knowledgeable fan "off the street" (i.e.- NOT someone who has "drunk Wedge's Kool-Aid", who would, for example, insist on putting Peralta at short) could manage the team in that case! Face it...he "lucked out" with an almost "perfect storm" situation (that Shapiro provided him with) and he STILL "blew it" at the end (like he's been doing so with regularity for the last 4 years when the "expectations were on" [them])! (Remember: " 'Da Nile' is not just a river in Egypt!" )

[tonyc]

I found some good reasons here, also, as to why Wedge should be fired (also contains some people "sticking up for him", as well) [WARNING: CONTAINS SOME STRONG LANGUAGE, AT TIMES]:

http://www.theclevelandfan.com/boards/v ... 433dc9b1b3

Here's an excellent article on Tony LaRussa and the excellent job he's doing this year especially with the Cardinals:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/stor ... BHeadlines

Here's the most telling quote (from the above article) as it relates to one Eric Wedge (note the last sentence especially!):

"The Cardinals essentially have only three everyday players: catcher Yadier Molina, third baseman Troy Glaus and Pujols. La Russa has used every bit of the roster to fill in the remaining spots.

The Cardinals could end up with 14 players receiving more than 200 at-bats and more than 100 lineups used. No NL playoff team last season had more than 11 players with 200 at-bats. Two of those clubs, Colorado and Philadelphia, used fewer than 70 lineups.

"That's what makes Tony special,'' Cardinals general manager John Mozeliak said. "He keeps finding ways to win.''

La Russa looks at this as competition bringing out the best in players such as outfielders Rick Ankiel, Ryan Ludwick and Skip Schumaker and infielder Aaron Miles.

None was a proven major leaguer before this season. Each has performed well. Miles is hitting better than .300 with a .360-plus on-base percentage, and while Schumaker is batting just below .300 (.299), he has a .362 on-base percentage. Ankiel and Ludwick each has 15-plus homers.

Each goes in and out of the lineup as La Russa weighs who is hot against who could suffer from overexposure.

"Tony is the best manager in the game, a Hall of Famer for sure,'' Pujols said. "He has a lot to do with this. He keeps the pressure off those young guys.'' "

GOT THAT?! HE (LARUSSA) KEEPS THE PRESSURE OFF (NOT "ON", OFF!!!) THE YOUNG PLAYERS (and they're in the middle of a pennant-race, right now). Wedge doesn't do that; his MO is to "turn up the screws" on the young players EVEN MORE (in pressure situations) which seems to regularly cause them to individually (and collectively) implode (or, to put it bluntly, "choke in the clutch").

[tonyc]

More "Wedge needs to go"-related material (including my latest "rant" on Wedge) @ this link:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=633

Good comments (pro and con) on Wedge @ this link (on the first third of the page):

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3975 ... r#comments

Jon Heyman of SI calls Wedge the "worst AL manager" here:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/w ... index.html

Here's the Bill Livingston article I quoted above (more critical of Shapiro than Wedge, though) with OVER 100 COMMENTS underneath the article!:

http://blog.cleveland.com/sports/2008/0 ... _seas.html

[tonyc]

Excellent article (below) on why the Indians should "move in a new direction" without Wedge (obtained from this link):

http://about90feet.com/?cat=14

“At this time, we feel it is in our best interest to move in a new direction…”

Thursday, July 10th, 2008

It seems like that phrase is always a part of the press conference following the firing of a manager or a general manager and I, for one, am ready to hear those words depart the lips of Mark Shapiro as he announces that Eric Wedge will no longer be with the team.

I don’t particularly want to hear the phrase during the season, but sometime this October, between the end of the Indians season and the end of the World Series, I think the Tribe needs to start looking in a new direction (Although, if Wedge’s heir is already somewhere in the system or otherwise available to take over the job immediately, it might make sense to make the move sooner and let the new guy learn on the job).

And I am not calling for Wedge’s head as a knee-jerk reaction to a rough season, but because of what I see as a pattern of poor decision making that is hampering the organization in its quest to take the next step. I don’t believe that a manger can impact a team’s wins and losses in a significant way on a daily basis (assuming that the manager uses a reasonable lineup and rotation, I just don’t think the decisions to hit-and-run, play match-ups, etc. really hurt or help a team a ton), but I think that some of Wedge’s decisions are causing long-term damage to the organization.

The biggest issue I see is a complete unwillingness to play young players. And this dates back a few years. In 2004, Grady Sizemore showed some real potential, with a .333 OBP, .406 SLG and 97 OPS+, over 159 plate appearances, none of which are incredibly stellar, but the guy was a league average offensive player at age 21, and when a guy is league average at 21 he is a) destined for stardom and b) not in need of any further seasoning at AAA. As a point of reference, Justin Upton has a 102 OPS+ in his age 20 season. And he earned the right to stay in the bigs this year despite a 62 OPS+ last year. Both guys are centerfielders, both had solid minor league numbers. And yet for his age 22 season, Grady was nearly sent back down to AAA by the Indians. He only got added to the team because Juan Gonzalez couldn’t stay healthy. And what did Grady do in 2005? Put up a 123 OPS+, tagged 22 HR, and even picked up a few misguided votes in the MVP balloting. So you would think that Wedge would learn from his mistake.

But in 2006, Wedge was so reluctant to give Brandon Philips another shot the Indians were forced into trading him away for next to nothing (no offense to Jeff Stevens). It would take Philips another year to truly develop (his 88 OPS+ in 2006 wasn’t exactly world-beating), but denying Philips a shot opened up a black hole at second base that, with the exception of two solid (but overrated) months of Asdrubal Cabrera in 2007, the team has proven unable to fill.

In 2007, Wedge stuck with Trot Nixon, Jason Michaels and David Dellucci far too long, while both Ben Francisco and Franklin Gutierrez were raking in Buffalo. Same with Barfield and Asdrubal at 2B.

And now, in 2008, even as the season has clearly devolved into a rebuilding campaign, he sticks with Casey Blake at 3rd and Ryan Garko at first while Andy Marte rots away on the bench. Say what you want about Marte, but here is a guy who posted an 80 OPS+ in limited playing time at age 22 and since then has been relegated to less than 130 plate appearances over TWO SEASONS. Garko on the year, by the way, has a 78 OPS+. So even if you don’t want to bench Blake, maybe it is time to let Marte play third with Blake at first just to see what we have in this kid. Otherwise we are going to watch him walk away for nothing. If we are going to lose him, let’s at least be sure we are losing a bust and not a guy still waiting for a legit shot.

And the pattern of sticking with known quantities rather than giving someone or something new a shot extends beyond just giving youngsters a shot. Wedge seems to rely on only 3-4 relief pitchers, rarely allowing anyone else to touch a potentially meaningful inning. Are all those innings pitched by the top guys responsible for Betancourt’s implosion against the Sox in the ALCS? Or for his struggles this year? Did the lack of faith in half the pen require extra effort from Westbrook, Carmona and Sabathia in 2007, contributing to the injuries suffered by the former two and the rough start by the latter, all of which contributed to the weak showing by the team? Honestly, I have no idea, but it is definitely something to consider and lowering the number of taxing innings pitched by those guys couldn’t have hurt.

Similarly, Wedge has reacted woefully slowly to the emergence of Grady Sizemore as a true “middle of the order” hitter and, perhaps just as importantly, to the disintegration of the rest of the middle of our lineup. As early as 2006, Grady was hitting like a speedy three hitter. A great example, actually, is a young Barry Bonds (seriously) who started off his career as a leadoff hitter before transforming into a middle of the order beast. Barry’s age 21-25 OPS+’s were: 103, 114, 148, 126, 170. Grady’s were/are: 97, 123, 132, 122, 140. Barry was a bit higher across the board, particularly in year 5, but you get the idea. Point is, Bonds was a middle of the lineup guy in that age 25 season (incidentally, Pittsburgh won the NL East that year). Now, a couple years ago, or even last year, it was fairly safe to leave Grady up top. With Pronk and Vic and even Garko hitting in the middle, letting Grady bat with no one on was a reasonable choice. But by the start of 2008, or at the very least by May, it was clear that Grady was one of the few guys on this team capable of driving in runs and hitting with some power.

Now, having said that, I fully understand that there is no one else on this roster capable of hitting in the leadoff spot. To be perfectly honest, the way this team is constructed, Grady is our best option for the 1-4 spots and there is no one else even REMOTELY close to him at any of them. But it has become abundantly clear that the best place for Grady in the future is batting in the middle of the lineup, likely 3rd (Note for those of you arguing that your best hitter should get the most plate appearances: according to a John Dewan study of the 2006 MLB season, the average #1 hitter gets 35 more plate appearances than the average #3 hitter but comes to bat with men on base 92 more times. In other words, you give up 4.6% of your plate appearances, but get 35.5% more opportunities to bat with men on base. If you think that the result of that would be FEWER runs for the Indians with Grady batting 3rd, you are out of your mind).

A team that has limited resources, like the Indians, needs to be quick on its feet and needs to always be finding ways to get more production for less money. Maximizing the value of a guy like Sizemore, protecting the arms of your young pitchers, and finding talent in your rookies and youngsters are the best ways to do this. We have a GM who seems to understand this and who has consistently found ways to take pricey veterans who are contributing small amounts (Eduardo Perez, Ben Broussard, Bob Wickman were all turned into valuable prospects) or to trade guys who are more valuable to other teams than they are to us (15 months of Bartolo Colon, 3 months of CC Sabathia, Coco Crisp moving from left at the Jake to center at Fenway) and to improve the team in the process (again, say what you want about Marte, but Crisp hasn’t exactly been a world-beater in Boston and most of his value comes from being a stellar centerfielder…and we already have one of those. And don’t forget that Shoppach came over in that deal as well). But our manager seems incapable of maximizing those moves, unless he has no other choice.

There are a few other things that MIGHT be Wedge’s fault, but which I have no hard evidence to support - the team’s remarkable ability to consistently underperform it’s pythagorean winning percentage (although I imagine the bullpen’s poor performance is really to blame), the fact that every hitter on the current roster is underperforming (except Grady, of course), the fact that this team still seems to make more baserunning and fielding blunders than most others, etc. - but it is the reasons listed above that have me looking forward to the post-Wedge era in Cleveland.

[tonyc]

Wow! Check out this article from Crain's Cleveland Business (obtained from this link)!

http://crainscleveland.com/article/2008 ... 2/0/weblog

Tricks of the trade

Blog entry: June 17, 2008, 8:37 am | Author: JOEL HAMMOND

Are Eric Wedge and Mark Shapiro holding the Indians back?

I’ve long defended the Brandon Phillips decision — in fact I’ve written in this space that Wedge and Shapiro can’t operate in fear of another Phillips situation — because Phillips, it seemed, simply showed no signs of becoming the player he is today.

But, I may be changing my mind, thanks in part to this Q&A Phillips did with FoxSports.com’s Ken Rosenthal.

Some excerpts:

“I was a young guy, called up to the big leagues when I was 21. Guys were like, ‘You're the future. You're the man, the biggest part of the (Colon) trade. You're going to be here.’ Listening to that stuff, guys saying that I was going to be here, not get sent down ... I got caught up in it.

“But it was a different story with me. The coaching staff didn't really like me over there with Cleveland Indians.”

“I have a lot of flair to my game. I do like to have fun. I've always been like that, since I was a little kid. I understand that it's a business, but I've still got to have fun.

“The best way to have fun is go out there knowing you can play, knowing you're the best player on the team. If I think that I'm the best player on the team, I'm going to have some fun.

“The Indians didn't like me smiling all the time. Sometimes when I mess up, I smile. That's my way of showing I'm human, that it's not going to bother me. I'll just smile and say, ‘I'm going to get ’em.’”

Yikes.

As if Phillips’ blossoming wasn’t enough, how about the aftermath it has wrought? Still in search of a second baseman, the Indians traded third base prospect Kevin Kouzmanoff for the Padres’ Josh Barfield.

What has Kouzmanoff done? Only hit .263 with 10 homers and 33 RBI, which is 111 points and 10 homers higher than the player who made him expendable, Andy Marte.

Add in the early success of former Indian Milton Bradley, who is a little crazy, yes, but whose major flaw here was that Wedge didn’t like him, and Ryan Ludwick, whose flaw, admittedly, was poor health, and you’ve got a not-so-sterling reflection on Wedge and Shapiro early in 2008.

Whew. My head is spinning.

Yes, the Indians are, as Wedge loves to say, grinding it out, battling to the last out.

But when the going gets tough —as it most certainly is right now for the Tribe — perhaps supreme talent like Phillips and Bradley wins out over everything else, eh?

It seems more every day that the Indians may have eschewed that talent for grinders.

[tonyc]

More good "Wedge needs to go" material @ this link (I'm tonyeastlake there, by the way):

http://blog.cleveland.com/sports/2008/0 ... l#comments

Best quote (from the comments underneath the article):

Posted by EdsinNaples on 07/28/08 at 7:11AM

"Oh by the way, I had the tribe on... sattelite, via the twins broadcast.

... Bert Blylevin "says they have a runner in scoring position, and they are pitching to Morneau with a 3-1 count, and first base open, I can't believe it" Next pitch "bang" double to opposite field . Then after things settle down Blylevian says "You don't pitch to the guy who is paid to beat you, in that situation"

I think Gardinhire was just either being nice to Wedgenut, in his comments, or is laughing up his sleeve at him.

These kind of decisions take the morale right out of The Tribe.

How much do they pay Wedge??????????..."

My comment:

It sounded like Derek Jeter was laughing, also (underneath his breath), when asked about Wedge's decision to pitch to a red-hot A-Rod right before the All-Star break last year - with first base open in a crucial situation - a decision resulting in A-Rod hitting a "bomb" to win the game. Jeter said (again, sounding very much like he was trying to keep himself from laughing!), "Uh...I wouldn't have pitched to him!"

I have to believe (based on Wedge's litany of "bonehead" moves) that his "in-game" decision-making ability (among other things) is viewed, pretty much, as a "joke" among knowledgeable baseball people across the country!

-----------------------------------------------
"They're all gonna LAUGH at choo!!!" - line from Piper Laurie's character (to Sissy Spacek's character) in the horror movie, "Carrie". [That's NOT a Shin Soo Choo (or however he spells his name) reference, by the way!]

[tonyc]

Here's an item in the PD today written by Paul Hoynes ("Hoynesie") concerning what happening in Minnesota Sunday (when Raffy Perez pitched to Justin Morneau in a crucial ninth-inning situation w/ first base open) [and with my comments following it]:

"DEJA VU: Wedge defended his choice to let lefty Rafael Perez face lefty Justin Morneau on Sunday in the ninth inning with first base open, two out and the go-ahead run on second base by saying Morneau had only one hit against Perez. Morneau doubled home the go-ahead run to break a 2-2 tie in the Twins' 4-2 victory.

What Wedge neglected to say is that the other hit Morneau had against Perez was also a game-winner.

On April 20, the Indians and Twins were tied, 1-1, in the 10th inning at the Metrodome. There were two out with runners on first and third. There was a base open, but Wedge let Perez face Morneau and he lined a game-winning single to right field.

Morneau is 2-for-9 against Perez."

Hoynesie seems to be letting the facts "speak for themselves" in his article here instead of coming right out (for obvious reasons) and saying Wedge was a moron for doing what he did. Here's a baseball rule Wedge doesn't seem to understand, "YOU DON'T LET THE OTHER TEAMS' BEST HITTERS BEAT YOU (IF YOU CAN HELP IT)", and Wedge surely could have "helped" it in this situation by walking Morneau. We've "seen this movie before" with Wedge and he keeps making the same mistakes OVER AND OVER. [HELLO!! McFLY!! ANYBODY HOME (IN THE INDIANS' FRONT OFFICE)?!] THE GUY HAS GOT TO GO!!!

[ Wedge is "so smart" that he's stupid! (SERIOUSLY!!) He apparently has a great deal of "book learning" in esoteric baseball theories and can apply complicated formulas to baseball situations but he has neither a "good feel" for the game nor much "common sense" about the game! He can "ride" talent well (i.e.-when talent is "on a roll", he's OK (i.e.-talent that he hasn't "thrown in the trash heap" for non-conformity to his arbitrary, creativity-stifling "rules"!)), but when the "chips are down" (in "clutch" situations) he, in the majority of cases, hasn't made the right move (or moves) that would have brought success. He's "choked" in those situations and, I think, we've (generally speaking) falsely ascribed the "choking" more to his players than to him! He needs to go...I'm sorry, he's a "nice guy" and all that but... he just needs to go....]

I remember a quote that is, I think, appropriate here. The quote is:
"You can only lead others as far as you've gone yourself" Wedge has never "won it all" as a player or manager (unless you count him winning the college national championship @ Wichita State when he played there...he DEFINITELY has NOT "won it all" in the professional ranks - either as a player or manager!). We need a manager that has "been there, done that" if we seriously want to "get over the hump" and win a world championship here in baseball. As to who the guy to replace Wedge would be, I'll leave that up for debate as I haven't put a lot of thought into that yet...here's a question, though: Are there any would-be managers "out there" who have "won it all" (preferrably more than once!) and are currently looking for a job right now? If we did change managers (as I'm advocating here), then my suggestion is that the manager to replace Wedge should DEFINITELY be someone from that "pool" of candidates!

[WaitTillNextYear]

Just wondering why it seems Wedge seems to know how to manage very well whenever Cliff Lee starts a game. Oh yeah, I forgot. If the team wins it is the players, if they loose it is the manager. Also, he seemed to manage pretty well when CC was pitching. Wonder how he would have done if Fausto would have stayed healthy? And as week as many feel we are this year thru out our lineup, Wedge had this same group with in 1 game of making it to the World Series. And that was with our 2 best pitchers unable to win 1 game in 4!! And our best pitcher this year was not even on the roster. Think he would have been a better manager this year if Westbrook would have stayed healthy? Scares me to think that you people wanting to fire the manager are the same people that vote for our president.

1. How do you figure he knows how to manage well when Lee starts? Lee has 4 no decisions. In those 4 games, he has gone 30 innings and given up 4 runs, an average of 1 run allowed per start. He should have 16 or 17 wins right now, not 14.

2. It's "lose", not loose. Unless you meant if the team "not tights" it is the managers fault. But fine, lets give him credit when they win. I believe that adds up to 46 thumbs ups and 59 thumbs downs. How is that acceptable for a team expected to be a WORLD SERIES contender?

3. How would they have done if Fausto was healthy? They were 22-25 when he got hurt. That's almost 1/3 of the season.

4. He had this group within 1 game of the world series with NO EXPECTATIONS. That's kind of the point. They fall apart whenever they have expectations. And by the way, the game is baseball, not horseshoes. Almost winning doesn't mean jack.

5. Think he would have been a better manager if Westbrook had stayed healthy? No not really. They were 24-29 when Jake got hurt. That IS over 1/3 of the year. How long would it have taken for you to realize this team wasn't gonna win regardless?

Other then that great points though

[tonyc]

With Peralta at short (for the forseeable future! (i.e.-according to Mark Shapiro, the other day (As the Nissan guy from North Olmsted would say, "ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!!")!)), it's like as if the Indians would "spot" the other team one or two hits per game [!] and, with Wedge's distaste and refusal to play "small ball", it's like as if we would "spot" the other team half a run per game [!] - both before any particular game even starts!! (It's PATHETIC!!!) (By the way, NOTE TO PAUL DOLAN: I'm a "big fan" but I haven't been to a game since about 2005 - i.e.- when I came to the realization that we would never "win it all" with Wedge as manager. (MY THOUGHT PROCESS: "Why get 'overly-excited' (LIKE EXCITED ENOUGH TO GO TO GAMES!) about a team that I KNOW (with a degree of certainty that I previously only used to have when performing mathematics!) will "come up short" in the end?!!")

[tonyc]

Here's some comments about E-Wedge (about last night's game) that I thought were (pretty much) "on the money" from this link:

http://blog.cleveland.com/sports/2008/0 ... l#comments

Posted by EdsinNaples on 08/02/08 at 9:30AM
"...Make sure that peralta contiues to play that limited role at short. The one that maximizes his range to 2 steps left or right of his position, and then finishes with the ole of the ball as it trickles into the outfield..

Don't play Cabrera at short, and Carroll at second because that would upset the pitchers by having an infield that would pick up some of the dribblers...."

Posted by razelme on 08/02/08 at 9:35AM
"This is not a knock on Gutierrez because bunting seems to be a lost art in baseball. There is no special physical ability or athletic talent needed to execute a sacrifice bunt. What it takes is practice....like shooting free throws. There is no excuse for a major league player not to be able to move a runner with a bunt most of the time unless the manager and coaching staff don't insist on it. Especially when half the team is still trying to find itself at the plate."

Posted by Cavsgreat25 on 08/02/08 at 9:50AM
"Wedge has to know his players and the situation better, with Garko being the runner at second and Franklin hitting the ball hard all night he should be swinging away. You have to put down a perfect bunt for the fleet of foot Garko to even get to third on the quick rolling turf in Metrodome. As for Sowers his improvement is a good sign because we are going to need him next year. Wedge just fails to recognize when his pitchers have lost it, he always pulls them two batters to late. I am sorry and he seems like a nice guy but that doesn't qualify him as the best fit for this young team..."

Posted by DtribeK on 08/02/08 at 11:31AM
"Even though I'd love to see the team get rid of Wedge, I have to give him his due. Pinch hitting Peralta in the 7th for Marte was the first good move I've seen from him in a long, long time. Of course using Dellucci in the 9th was just the opposite. Even though Gut is no gem at the plate, and is a right handed hitter, it was a terrible move. First of all, if Gut is your guy, then you have to build his confidence. Pulling him for a guy who's 2 for 12 in pinch hitting situations is not going to do that. Even you stats guys have to agree that 2 for 12 is no worse than what Gut can do. I don't care if it's lefty vs. righty or not. And, of course, Dellucci shouldn't be around anyways. So, last night Wedge gets a C for one good move and one lousy move in my book. That's actually pretty good for him."

[TribefanstuckinMA]

"tonyc" more "Wedge needs to go"-related material

Jon Heyman of SI calls Wedge the "worst AL manager" here:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/w ... index.html

Just bothered to read this thread because it is so long, but glad I did. I find it equally interesting that Mark Shapiro is also listed as the worst GM in the American league!

[tonyc]

Jon Heyman of SI calls Wedge the "worst AL manager" here:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/w ... index.html

Just bothered to read this thread because it is so long, but glad I did. I find it equally interesting that Mark Shapiro is also listed as the worst GM in the American league!

Just happened to read that article again about 24 hrs ago and you're right, TribefanstuckinMA, it DID say that about Mark.

Also, I found more material about Wedge last night (although sometimes (like in this case) you have to "read between the lines"):

This is from the "recap" of last night's Indians/ Twins game gotten @:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/recap;_ylt= ... 09&prov=ap

"...Shoppach hit a two-run drive in the fourth inning to give Cleveland a 3-1 lead. It was the fourth homer in five games for Shoppach, who is playing in place of injured catcher Victor Martinez and hitting .390 since July 20.

“It helps just to be comfortable knowing that if you have a bad night, you have a chance to go back out there the next day and improve on the mistakes you made the previous night," Shoppach said..."

Was that last statement by Kelly a veiled "shot" at E-Wedge? It would seem so to me! (It's like he's saying, "You can't get into any kind of a 'groove' unless you have regular playing time and now I FINALLY get some regular PT - but ONLY because of injury to Victor") Kelly didn't say it but I'll say it for him..." 'Nice job' stunting a player's growth by (at least, up until recently) giving him inconsistent PT again, Wedgie!"

Ya know...(after just thinking through this for a minute) I can name three times "off the top of my head" where Wedge didn't know what he had in players and wouldn't have given them regular playing time (PT) except that the "guys in front of them" got injured!! Here's the three guys that "popped" into my head...Grady (wouldn't have played if Juan-Gon hadn't been "Juan-Gone"), Fausto (wouldn't have gotten a chance if Jake didn't get hurt - if I'm not mistaken- or was it because Cliff Lee "tanked" last year? Either way, there's another young guy (promising young player) not getting a chance from Wedge unless it's a unusual circumstance) and now Shoppach. I was hesitant to believe the other posters who said as much but now I am convinced of it: Wedge has a strong aversion to playing younger, unproven players - even if they have a "high ceiling"!! (Another good reason (within an ever-growing litany of good reasons (cf. (pretty much) the rest of this thread!)) to "can" him, if you ask me!)

[tonyc]

...I would think that he would recognize the importance of GIVING YOUR TEAM THE BEST CHANCE TO WIN when writing out the lineup card, and batting a 40 HR guy first, and changing the rest of the lineup card on a daily basis because of platoons that are insisted upon, speaks volumes about who is running this team, and who has 2 major chokes and 2 season collapses to show for his tenure here, to go along with his 5 losing seasons in 7 years...

Yeah...it looks like the only way that Wedge will put Grady in the "3-hole" is if he DOES hit 40 HRs this year in the "1-hole" and, ostensibly, becomes even more of a "laughstock" than he already in baseball "circles". (Is that the ONLY way to get changes done in this town (E.g.- Witness the "joke" that JoBo became in the couple of months leading up to the time right before he finally got "cut"!)? It would seem so! OK...so be it, then! Come on, Grady!! Hit 40 dingers!!!)

(BTW, NOTE TO SCHWABIE AND KEVIN: You SAY you're big "track record" guys but you still seem to be die-hard, dyed-in-the-wool "Wedgie-should-stay-as-mgr" guys, also...why? Reread the sentence I just quoted from Larry (which, IMO, is a good summary statement about Wedge). We should ALL - just like those "CSI-guys" on TV (AND in "real life", BTW!) - "let the evidence speak to us" and then "follow the evidence where it leads"...doesn't the evidence tell you (and this is sad thing for "us" in Cleveland - it would have been better for all of "us" if he WOULD have been a success in his time here as mgr and brought us a world championship!) that Wedge is a failure as a major-league manager (for the most part)? Again, the greater part of the evidence available seems to tell me that; doesn't the greater part (not ALL THE EVIDENCE (I'm NOT SAYING he doesn't have some "good points" about him!), just the "greater part"!) of the evidence tell you that?)

Pretend you're a juror having to give a "verdict" on whether Wedge has been a success or failure as manager IN ALL THE TIME he's been here in Cleveland (never mind what he did in the minors...that's IRRELEVANT to what we're talking about now - i.e.- whether he should continue HERE IN CLEVELAND as manager); the ONLY CHOICES you have is whether he's been an "overall" success or an "overall" failure in his term here as mgr. - what's your verdict, guys?!

[TribefanstuckinMA]

And the players that he likes are so...average. He goes for average guys like Trot Nixon and even Casey Blake. We don't have any fast African American players. In fact, do we have any on the team? (Grady doesn't count) Wedge butted heads with the ones we had and shipped them off. (Bradley and Phillips) Jason Michaels and David Dellucci were prefered over Kenny Lofton. Even Eddie Murray got fired from the coaching staff...lol I guess it's lucky for us that Trevor Crowe, Matt Laporta, and Beau Mills are all white guys.

Geez, Larry, I sure hope you aren't calling Wedgie a racist. He did at least get along with CC, right? I know, old C.C. is gone, but he left because of the money, or lack of willingness to part with it on the part of ownership. I just hope people don't hop all over you like white on rice (I have no idea what that expression really means, but I just couldn't resist using it here ).

[tonyc]

Here's some comments gotten from underneath the recap of the game (yesterday - when Mujica and Kobayashi "imploded" in the ninth inning against the Rays) at the cleveland.com web site:

Posted by oldafchief on 08/06/08 at 11:26PM
Just when you think things can't get any worse, along comes a game like today. If anyone needs any more evidence that Wedge cannot handle a ML team and especially a pitching staff, you just got it. What other manager in baseball would've put in Mupuka to close to start with? I'll tell you - nobody....
Wedge needs to go, along with his pathetic coaching staff... Skinner never takes the speed of the runner into account when sending runners to the plate. Shelton must teach players how NOT to hit since every player he tutors hits better after going to AAA or another team after he's "coached" them...

The only true ML offensive players on the current active are Sizemore, Shoppach, Peralta and Francisco. The rest are at best bench players.

The bullpen is a mess partly because Wedge is incompetent. A pitcher cannot sit for 2 weeks without pitching in a game and then be expected to retire every batter he faces when he does get called into a game. Just doesn't happen. Part of the problem with Betancourt is that Wedge simply wore him out last year. He over uses one or two guys and lets the rest of them rot in the pen. How are the others supposed to stay sharp?

To all of you Wedge fans who like to point out that he managed the team to 96 wins last year, I would say that a REAL MAJOR LEAGUE MANAGER would have won at least 110 games and probably won a world title with the same team.


Posted by JulioFranco on 08/06/08 at 7:07PM
Uh oh.

Are we watching a rerun of Major League???

These meltdowns are inexcusable. Two or three a year are to be expected. It seems like we're seeing them implode about twice weekly now.

Sad.

The name on the door is Cleveland. The door is attached to the outhouse!

[tonyc]

In the new thread I just started "WEDGE SHOULD NOT BE FIRED...HERE'S WHY:" I gave some reasons for the "other side" to get the discussion rolling. Here's what I said:

" MAYBE Wedge will change from now until the end of this year...
MAYBE he'll: 1) Put Grady in the 3-hole instead of the batting him leadoff,
MAYBE he'll: 2) Put Perez in the role of closer, since he's the best reliever we have (and where else to put the best reliever you have than in the closer's role?)
MAYBE he'll: 3) Try out Jhonny at third for a couple weeks, to see if he can handle it (since a 3rd-baseman doesn't need to cover as much ground as a shortstop).

OK...what I said above IS possible (I would normally put my reservations about these things happening here, but I'M REALLY TRYING TO BE POSITIVE RIGHT NOW), so if it happens, then I wouldn't mind keeping Wedge on for one more year (since he would then be "on the right track")...anyone else have any reason or reasons as to why we should keep Wedge on as manager?"

Everything I wrote is true (and I have to add... I'm open to those things happening!) but, I have to say, there's probably only about a 20 percent chance of him putting Perez in the closer's role and a 10 percent chance of the other two happening...this is based on Wedge's 6-yr "track record" of adamantly "sticking to his guns" AGAINST ALL GOOD REASON AND ARGUMENT - i.e.- especially when it comes to his "pet projects". It's a sad fact, but true!

[tonyc]

Our best reliever is Raffy Perez, yet Wedge REFUSES to use him as the closer. The closer is the most important "slot" in the bullpen...when you have your closer, that "sets up" the rest of the pen. As Phil Savage would say, "That's not sound thinking!" i.e.-in this case, to not, at least, TRY OUT Perez as the closer -just like having a less-than-ML-quality-defensive shortstop as your everyday shortstop, having a possible 40 hr guy as your lead-off man and pitching to other team's best hitters with the game on the line and hoping that decision doesn't bite you in the rear end - BUT THAT'S WEDGE FOR YOU!! What you see is what you get!!

[tonyc]

[NOTE:from the Aug.11 game thread that I've copied to this thread] Lost in the good feeling over this victory is the admission by Wedge that Rafael Perez wasn't available this evening. Why? Because he pitched the ninth yesterday when we had a four run lead.

If Mujica's appearance had cost us this game--and no doubt Perez was the perfect guy to go to with Markakis at the plate, the bases loaded and one out--I think our bullpen usage would be under a microscope.

I have to strongly question Wedge's "all-around" decision-making ability...he's been on the job FOR 6 YEARS NOW and he still makes "rookie" mistakes - in almost every facet of the game!

His baseball decisions, in WAY too many cases, go against conventional baseball "wisdom". On the other hand, when creativity IS called for (like when the team is in a "rut" -usually a hitting "rut"), he then reverts to his "grinding it out" mantra! In other words, he's creative in ways he shouldn't be, and when he should be, he's not. WE CAN'T WIN (WITH WEDGE, LITERALLY)!!

[tonyc]

[NOTE: FROM THE "WEDGE SHOULD NOT BE FIRED...HERE'S WHY:" thread] And I feel he [Wedge] does bring some positives in terms of our overall approach to the game. Last year, I felt we had one of the most relentless teams in baseball (see comeback wins). They played hard & gave you a professional AB until the game was over, regardless of the score (we are starting to see this again recently).

You know, I agree with you as far as last year is concerned; the Indians were relentless as far as comeback wins were concerned...but WHAT HAPPENED THIS YEAR? It seems like guys who had good approaches at the plate last year were lost (at the plate) at the beginning of this year UNTIL WE "THREW IN THE TOWEL". Now that we've "thrown in the towel", their approaches at the plate are getting back to what they were last year...what happened? I think it's something Kevin alluded to - the Indians became an "excuse" team (in contrast to a "no-excuse" team)! When you're a "no-excuse" team then you (as a team) look for ways to get better and win games; when you're an "excuse" team, you resign yourself to the thought that "you can't win in the end", so why bother trying to exert yourself too much. You become passive in your approach instead of actively "finding a way" to do better. Who's fault is this - that the Indians had that approach at the beginning of this year? Wedge and Shapiro are the guys who "threw in the towel" on this season (AS WELL AS IN 2006, BY THE WAY). So my educated guess is that the Indian players bad "approaches" at the plate (which is where they had the most problems this year) in the early part of the year was a direct result of "excuse-making" by Wedge and Shapiro (EVEN BEFORE THEY AGREED TO "THROW IN THE TOWEL"). [E.g.-"You can't expect to win when you lose your 3 and 4 hitters and 2 and 3 pitchers."] This average division that we're in almost always makes it a bad decision to "throw in the towel"; there's too many games in the year to play to throw in any towels. What I'm saying here is that we "threw in the towel" this year and in 2006 when we shouldn't have and Wedge and Shapiro are to blame for that (as well as "excuse-making" afterwards). It's too late now for this year, UNLESS we go "2007 Colorado Rockies" on the rest of league for the remainder of the season and put Raffy Perez in as closer, as baseball logic would dictate that you do.

P.S.- ADD CC's 6 WINS WITHOUT A LOSS TO WHAT WE HAVE NOW AND WE'RE WHAT? 8-10 GAMES OUT? THE WAY THE TWINS, TIGERS AND WHITE SOX ARE PLAYING, OVERCOMING THAT MODEST LEAD SEEMS NOT TOTALLY OUT OF THE QUESIION, RIGHT? DUDES, I THINK WE THREW IN THE TOWEL TOO SOON, JUST AS WE DID IN 2006...

[tonyc]

I asked Kevin Keane (in the Aug.12th gameday thread)if he thought the Indians "threw in the towel" too soon on this season...this is his answer with my comments on his answer after that:

no i don't think they surrendered too early. they sealed it when they went on the "make or break" trip and lost EVERY game. my frustration stems from the fact that there was NO excuse for the way this team performed to put themselves in that position and management used the injuries to explain it

That's my point in calling for Wedge's head, Kevin...if he was able to loosen up the clubhouse, we wouldn't have nosedives like that under pressure. Wedge just doesn't seem to have the "necessities" (personality? leadership ability?) to get the job done in those situations; he does great when the towel is thrown, though, so I can see how people can be fooled by that. It seems to me that if he hasn't gotten the job done in those pressure situations so far (in the 6 YEARS he's been here - particularly the last 4), it's not likely he'll change and be able to do it in the future. It's never his fault; he won't "own" his deficencies. (BTW, although the Indians' FO never acknowledged the Indians clubhouse as being "tight", Paul Byrd did, so that indicates to me that what we all saw up until the time they traded CC was not a mirage.) Some guys just can't deal with the pressure; Wedge seems to be one of those guys...it's outside his "comfort zone" and the results (in the last 4 yrs) are there for all to see (Trot Nixon was probably the best thing to happen to Wedge in that he probably added 10 victories to the Indians total last year with his "pie-in-the-face" antics which, in turn, loosened the clubhouse to the degree where they could play good baseball in pressure situations. He got run out of town but now I think a lot of us are finally starting to appreciate what his value was to the team last year - Wedge was the "raise-the-pressure"-guy for the Indians clubhouse (which, in this analogy is the "pressure cooker") but Nixon was the "pressure-release" guy!).

What happened last year in the Boston series? The "looser" team won! Manny gives his "Who cares if we lose? We'll get 'em next year!" rant and it loosens up the "tight" (You have to admit, they did look "tight" in the process of getting down in the series 3 games to 1 to the Indians!) Red Sox to where they rallied 'round Manny and won every game for the rest of the post-season after he said all that. When teams get that far into the post-season, the teams who are "loosest" (assuming talent-levels on the competing teams are pretty much equal) tend to win it all.

My new thought (not mentioned on that thread...you'll only see it here): If a pressure cooker doesn't have a pressure-release valve, what happens? The pressure cooker will blow up or break down (which is what Indians' seasons have done with regularity over the last 4 years.)

Another thing...who's key hit gave us the 3-1 series lead against the Red Sox last year? Answer: Trot Nixon's...but, for some strange reason Wedge didn't play him again during series (except for in a pinch-hitting role, if I'm not mistaken). So, Wedge, the "pressure-raising"-guy abuses the "pressure-release"-guy and what was the result? Pressure is raised in the clubhouse (Nixon probably didn't like how he was being "tossed aside") which leads to a team breakdown in the next three games. My theory seems to "fit the facts", people! (If you (reading this) feel you have a better explanation for why Wedge's teams fold under pressure, then feel free to post it on this thread! I WANT to hear alternate, well-thought-out views...maybe you have better information or a better explanation for what happened that I've never considered!)

[tonyc]

Good news everyone...a few chapters of the book, "Dealing" by Terry Pluto are available online!! Read the chapter that has Terry's analysis of why the Indians tanked in 2006 here:

http://blog.cleveland.com/pdextra/2008/ ... ans_2.html

[tonyc]

Here's an article that I quoted part of before (in my "'Everyday' Indians who are 'square pegs in round holes'" thread but still has some good points that I've haven't seen before on why Wedge should be "canned":

[ obtained from: http://about90feet.com/?cat=14 ]

“At this time, we feel it is in our best interest to move in a new direction…”July 10th, 2008 by chad
It seems like that phrase is always a part of the press conference following the firing of a manager or a general manager and I, for one, am ready to hear those words depart the lips of Mark Shapiro as he announces that Eric Wedge will no longer be with the team.

I don’t particularly want to hear the phrase during the season, but sometime this October, between the end of the Indians season and the end of the World Series, I think the Tribe needs to start looking in a new direction (Although, if Wedge’s heir is already somewhere in the system or otherwise available to take over the job immediately, it might make sense to make the move sooner and let the new guy learn on the job).

And I am not calling for Wedge’s head as a knee-jerk reaction to a rough season, but because of what I see as a pattern of poor decision making that is hampering the organization in its quest to take the next step. I don’t believe that a manger can impact a team’s wins and losses in a significant way on a daily basis (assuming that the manager uses a reasonable lineup and rotation, I just don’t think the decisions to hit-and-run, play match-ups, etc. really hurt or help a team a ton), but I think that some of Wedge’s decisions are causing long-term damage to the organization.

The biggest issue I see is a complete unwillingness to play young players. And this dates back a few years. In 2004, Grady Sizemore showed some real potential, with a .333 OBP, .406 SLG and 97 OPS+, over 159 plate appearances, none of which are incredibly stellar, but the guy was a league average offensive player at age 21, and when a guy is league average at 21 he is a) destined for stardom and b) not in need of any further seasoning at AAA. As a point of reference, Justin Upton has a 102 OPS+ in his age 20 season. And he earned the right to stay in the bigs this year despite a 62 OPS+ last year. Both guys are centerfielders, both had solid minor league numbers. And yet for his age 22 season, Grady was nearly sent back down to AAA by the Indians. He only got added to the team because Juan Gonzalez couldn’t stay healthy. And what did Grady do in 2005? Put up a 123 OPS+, tagged 22 HR, and even picked up a few misguided votes in the MVP balloting. So you would think that Wedge would learn from his mistake.

But in 2006, Wedge was so reluctant to give Brandon Philips another shot the Indians were forced into trading him away for next to nothing (no offense to Jeff Stevens). It would take Philips another year to truly develop (his 88 OPS+ in 2006 wasn’t exactly world-beating), but denying Philips a shot opened up a black hole at second base that, with the exception of two solid (but overrated) months of Asdrubal Cabrera in 2007, the team has proven unable to fill.

In 2007, Wedge stuck with Trot Nixon, Jason Michaels and David Dellucci far too long, while both Ben Francisco and Franklin Gutierrez were raking in Buffalo. Same with Barfield and Asdrubal at 2B.

And now, in 2008, even as the season has clearly devolved into a rebuilding campaign, he sticks with Casey Blake at 3rd and Ryan Garko at first while Andy Marte rots away on the bench. Say what you want about Marte, but here is a guy who posted an 80 OPS+ in limited playing time at age 22 and since then has been relegated to less than 130 plate appearances over TWO SEASONS. Garko on the year, by the way, has a 78 OPS+. So even if you don’t want to bench Blake, maybe it is time to let Marte play third with Blake at first just to see what we have in this kid. Otherwise we are going to watch him walk away for nothing. If we are going to lose him, let’s at least be sure we are losing a bust and not a guy still waiting for a legit shot.

And the pattern of sticking with known quantities rather than giving someone or something new a shot extends beyond just giving youngsters a shot. Wedge seems to rely on only 3-4 relief pitchers, rarely allowing anyone else to touch a potentially meaningful inning. Are all those innings pitched by the top guys responsible for Betancourt’s implosion against the Sox in the ALCS? Or for his struggles this year? Did the lack of faith in half the pen require extra effort from Westbrook, Carmona and Sabathia in 2007, contributing to the injuries suffered by the former two and the rough start by the latter, all of which contributed to the weak showing by the team? Honestly, I have no idea, but it is definitely something to consider and lowering the number of taxing innings pitched by those guys couldn’t have hurt.

Similarly, Wedge has reacted woefully slowly to the emergence of Grady Sizemore as a true “middle of the order” hitter and, perhaps just as importantly, to the disintegration of the rest of the middle of our lineup. As early as 2006, Grady was hitting like a speedy three hitter. A great example, actually, is a young Barry Bonds (seriously) who started off his career as a leadoff hitter before transforming into a middle of the order beast. Barry’s age 21-25 OPS+’s were: 103, 114, 148, 126, 170. Grady’s were/are: 97, 123, 132, 122, 140. Barry was a bit higher across the board, particularly in year 5, but you get the idea. Point is, Bonds was a middle of the lineup guy in that age 25 season (incidentally, Pittsburgh won the NL East that year). Now, a couple years ago, or even last year, it was fairly safe to leave Grady up top. With Pronk and Vic and even Garko hitting in the middle, letting Grady bat with no one on was a reasonable choice. But by the start of 2008, or at the very least by May, it was clear that Grady was one of the few guys on this team capable of driving in runs and hitting with some power.

Now, having said that, I fully understand that there is no one else on this roster capable of hitting in the leadoff spot. To be perfectly honest, the way this team is constructed, Grady is our best option for the 1-4 spots and there is no one else even REMOTELY close to him at any of them. But it has become abundantly clear that the best place for Grady in the future is batting in the middle of the lineup, likely 3rd (Note for those of you arguing that your best hitter should get the most plate appearances: according to a John Dewan study of the 2006 MLB season, the average #1 hitter gets 35 more plate appearances than the average #3 hitter but comes to bat with men on base 92 more [[MY COMMENT: I think he meant "less" (not "more") here!] times. In other words, you give up 4.6% of your plate appearances, but get 35.5% more opportunities to bat with men on base. If you think that the result of that would be FEWER runs for the Indians with Grady batting 3rd, you are out of your mind).

A team that has limited resources, like the Indians, needs to be quick on its feet and needs to always be finding ways to get more production for less money. Maximizing the value of a guy like Sizemore, protecting the arms of your young pitchers, and finding talent in your rookies and youngsters are the best ways to do this. We have a GM who seems to understand this and who has consistently found ways to take pricey veterans who are contributing small amounts (Eduardo Perez, Ben Broussard, Bob Wickman were all turned into valuable prospects) or to trade guys who are more valuable to other teams than they are to us (15 months of Bartolo Colon, 3 months of CC Sabathia, Coco Crisp moving from left at the Jake to center at Fenway) and to improve the team in the process (again, say what you want about Marte, but Crisp hasn’t exactly been a world-beater in Boston and most of his value comes from being a stellar centerfielder…and we already have one of those. And don’t forget that Shoppach came over in that deal as well). But our manager seems incapable of maximizing those moves, unless he has no other choice.

There are a few other things that MIGHT be Wedge’s fault, but which I have no hard evidence to support - the team’s remarkable ability to consistently underperform it’s pythagorean winning percentage (although I imagine the bullpen’s poor performance is really to blame), the fact that every hitter on the current roster is underperforming (except Grady, of course), the fact that this team still seems to make more baserunning and fielding blunders than most others, etc. - but it is the reasons listed above that have me looking forward to the post-Wedge era in Cleveland.

[tonyc]

I think pitching "funks" and hitting "funks" are just "vicious circles" that are hard to get out of. One thing's for sure, though. "Grinding it out" makes it worse. You gotta use creativity in your approach to snap out of them - this may be Wedge's #1 weakness as a manager. He seems helpless (and, arguably, even exacerbates them!) when we get into these hitting or pitching funks and the results of those hitting and/ or pitching funks not-gotten-out-of are season collapses!

[WaitTillNextYear]

I know some of you will say "how can you post this now, we just pulled a 4 game sweep of Tampa Bay". Well, that's actually part of the reason I am posting this now. Is it any surprise to ANYBODY that as soon as the Indians officially threw in the towel for the year they reel off 4 straight against the team with the best record in the AL (coming into the series)? It's classic Wedge.

Just wanted to update, since I bumped the other topic up last night. It's now 30-18 since the towel was thrown in after a 37-53 start, and an 0-8 make or break road trip.

100% of it has been done without Jake or Pronk, 90% without Victor, C.C., or Casey. 70-80% has been done without Byrd or Fausto. By the way, the bullpen is the same too.

Clearly it was all injuries, and had nothing to do with expectations.

Also, an eerily similar record to the end of 2006, when the team went 30-20 over the final 50 games (when it no longer mattered) after starting the year 48-64.

And as for the "firing a manager in the middle of a season won't make a difference people" (because there were quite a few of them), I wanted to update the records of the 3 teams who DID make changes this season.

Seattle fired it's manager at 25-47. Since then they are 29-37. Still bad, but MUCH better.

Toronto fired it's manager at 35-39. Since then they are 36-27. Huh. 2 for 2, what do you know.

The Mets fired their manager at 34-35. Since then? 44-26.

From a collective 27 games below .500 before making the moves, to a collective 19 games above .500 afterwards.

If only the Indians had fired Wedge after 70 games like those 3 teams did with their dead weight managers. They were only 5 games back at the time (at 33-37). The season could have been salvaged.

[WhoAzcue]

Yessiree, Bob, the Vulcan Mind Meld strikes again.

"Now you will follow this watch very closely...VERY closely...and when I snap my fingers, because expectations are rising, you will start to LOSE again!"

[TribefanstuckinMA]

Charlie Brown can "work best under pressure" but not all people can. As a highly-paid professional player the "boss's" pressure for success should not impact a player. However, sometimes a human can perform better when you know your job and are left to perform it in the manner that suits your work style. IF a boss rides an employee to do the job in a way that the employee finds less productive it really can impact the employee's performance. After all, when Wedge declared the 8-game road trip a Make or Break time the Indians lost all eight games. We were 8 games below .500 when the trip started, came back 16 under and at the bottom of the division.

Unless you are in the dugout with the players during the games you cannot "black and white" the situation. I've worked in situations where one boss in the SAME office affected my production while under her. I wasn't a failure by any means. But when I started working for the other boss my production went up along with a much more positive outlook on the job itself. Subsequent employees (I was there to observe two) dealt with the same issue and had the same experience I did. You do not know what really goes on behind closed doors.

The perception is that when Wedge declares needed wins he gets the opposite. When he says fuggedaboudit we seem to have improved performance. Why? Got me. I'm sure it isn't Vulcan Mind Meld or whatever. Wedge is stated to be an even-keel manager; just perhaps it's time to rock things up a bit.